 xref alt atheism 54169 talk religion misc 84359 talk origin 41165 newsgroup alt atheism talk religion misc talk origin path edu!da-new harvard edu!noc net!howland reston an net!zaphod mp ohio-state edu!uwm edu!linac!att!att!allegra!ulyss!ulyss att com!ml from ml ulyss att michael l siemon subject re ancient refer christian albert sabin summari us histor sourc messag-id 1993apr26 143715 22173 ulyss att date mon 26 apr 1993 14 37 15 gmt refer 1r67ruinnml ctron-new ctron organ at t bell lab murrai hill nj usa line 83 in articl cobb alexia li uiuc mike cobb write in 1ren9a 94q morrow stanford salem pangea stanford edu bruce salem write in articl cobb alexia li uiuc mike cobb write why nt toss info jesu realiz toss miracl reason? it toss sourc regard unbias independ? bruce hit main point simpli -- russel turpin detail respons all sourc modern historiographi critic simpli claim deriv subject specif examin light motiv human consider well physic background the critic method appli both origin document and emphat includ histor research better report heard second hand? guess firsthand better second hand bia winner write histori principl firsthand best appli? but critic principl evid anyth all firsthand sourc jesu? paul's letter firsthand evid about paul interact thei result histor solid book nt paul's claim descript conflict jerusalem wie es eigent- lich gewesen -- definit comment particip! in evalu paul's statement testimoni wit court the gospel stori altogeth luke assuredli not firsthand wit he claim gather materi closer actual event -- convent claim ancient book luke fact never name wit point thing book deriv sourc detect luke john conclud remark deriv testimoni belov discipl not name we bound accept claim long time scholar reject outright fourth gospel best secondhand neither mark matthew claim firsthand later christian tradit associ gospl matthew arama proto-gospel associ mark peter second-hand statu recount peter's preach gospel such tradit claim difficulti evalu actual data luke matthew appear differ! anonym attest collect logoi deed jesu well depend mark thi testimoni at least thirdhand all historian do attempt glean nt sourc overwhelmingli obviou best sourc earliest church thei extrem light cast refract christian bias sectarian judaism time destruct 2nd templ the problem histor jesu tricki there cycl fashion major high peopl think discern historico-critic plausibl some- thing jesu' life opinion nt the difficulti domin think 50 year ago return favor gener - point bultmann schweitzer's treatment previou high-point cycl -- simpli becaus sourc pass at least layer anonym shape within earli church easi reliabl distribut ani materi real histori invent church there radic skeptic histori gospel posit maintain tool distinguish shape real histor materi commun oppos -- michael l siemon stand stand window ml panix as tear scald start ml ulyss att you love crook neighbor -standard disclaim- with crook heart 